photo by George Laoutaris
Several weeks ago, I sat down to interview a fantastic jazz musician living in Greece. Because of the violence and political persecution he sees on a regular basis, he asked to keep his identity secret. As you will read, Greece is becoming increasingly unstable with no end in sight. Political, social, and economic conditions seem to go from bad to worse. A recent headline reads Greek Unemployment Soars to New Record 56.6% of 15-24 year-olds without jobs. The following is an edited and condensed version of our conversation about working as a musician during an economic collapse.
BD: Mainstream media often characterizes the Greek bailouts as being relief aid for the people. Contrarily, alternative media has accused banks and governments of essentially robbing the Greek people.
I totally agree with that side of the story. The other side of the story does not affect anybody. It only affects the people in Sofokleous Str., which is the equivalent of Wall Street for you. Okay, so if for some reason the fiscal danger decreases, or whatever, nothing of that in any way, in any percentage, has anything to do with the way we live, ever. That’s only for them. So it’s them and us. If you’re not a money making business, you don’t make any money. So, if these guys actually, through the deals and everything, manage to cut some profits here, make some profits there…that never in any way, whatsoever, has any bearing on the Greek people. I can tell you that. I chase the news over banks over time. I have like four or five news outlets only on banks giving me feedback. And I know what’s happening. I can tell you, I’ve never seen any change in my life because of any deal of any banker ever or the government. Only for the worse, never for the best. So of what you told me, believe to a pretty good 70% to 80% what the Indie-media tells you, and the rest is baloney.
BD: How have the economic problems in Greece affected your music business? Have you lost work?
As far as I’m concerned, it’s a different story. As far as some other people are concerned, again, it’s a different story. I’m a musician, so I never was rich. I never was wealthy. And for some incredible reason, now that it’s full crisis, I get more work, but less pay. More work, but less money. And it’s all got to do with the popular music establishment. When people have money, they want to show off the money, especially if you’re like the modern Greek guy, which I detest. They go outside and go to those large music halls, -you know, music halls in quotations. You understand what I’m saying here-arenas basically. They go there, and they have that music which we call here doghouse music, which is a kind of pop/folk with a mixture of rock and a mixture of buzuki music and all that s---. We hate the guts of that thing, but we’re like a tragic minority because everybody else loves it. For example, whenever I take a taxi and tell somebody I’m a musician, the first thing they ask me is which “music hall” I work in. I tell them, “Guys, I’m not of this. I’m sorry.” Then they say, “Then what the h--- job are you doing?” So basically, that’s the way things are. For some people, they experienced a very huge economic growth after we were introduced to the Euro. For me now, the story goes like this; in 1998, you could make some pretty good living with what was then 200,000 Drachmas, which roughly corresponds to 600 Euros today. Because when the conversion started in 2000, it was 341.75 Drachmas per Euro. That was the exchange rate. You needed 341.75 Drachmas to buy a Euro for the exchange. So basically, it was like a ratio of 1:3. When you see 200,000 Drachmas, it’s about 600 Euros. You could live very well, not extremely well, but okay. You could manage. In 2000, there was this incredible thing when we went to the Euro, when the 100 Drachma bill was superseded by one Euro. One Euro is not 100 Drachmas, it’s 341.75. So, in like a year, everything just tripled. So you knew something was like 100 Drachmas to buy. Then in a year, you need, instead of 30 cents, a whole Euro to buy it. So in the end, one Drachma became one cent. But the wages were not higher. The wages were simply converted with the exchange rate, not increased. At least at that time...
BD: So the introduction of the Euro caused inflation?
The inflation, now is a very good question, because inflation is not just based on the stuff that you live on. But it’s also based on other things like the car, for example. Now car prices went down, because with the Greek entrance in the Euro zone, you had cars that cost less. But everything else was three times higher. So there was no visible inflation, but huge rise in real life expenditures. They cooked the numbers basically.
BD: In the U.S., the Fed likes to use hedonics, weighting, and other accounting tricks to do the same thing. If something rises too high in price, they just swap it with a less expensive commodity.
Yeah, but nothing is accounted for, especially after what they did now pouring lots of money into the economy. Man, you will constantly need wars to keep this bubble afloat. Without wars, you’re done. I’m talking American.
BD: You're talking about protecting the Petro-dollar?
Yeah, keep buying oil with dollars. Exactly, you got the game. Now imagine if the countries that produce oil had a choice. We could buy it in, say, Rubles, we can buy it in Euros…There’s no American economy the next day. The next day, there’s nothing.
BD: It would be hyperinflation.
Super-hyperinflation. Yeah. And nothing would be worth anything. The US dollar would only be good for burning. It’s not a hard currency.
BD: Would you say that your knowledge of economics is typical of an average Greek citizen, or are you particularly savvy when it comes to this stuff?
I am savvy. I truly want to stay ahead of the situation, because I have a family, and I have to plan what I’m going to do. I’m definitely leaving Greece with my family, so I have to see where I’m going to go. I have to keep abreast of the whole thing. But apart from that, many Greeks know what I’m saying. What Greeks don’t know is their own things, just like in America.
BD: How do you plan for the future?
I have to take into account A. whether I have bread tomorrow, B. whether I can pay my electricity bills, C. if I can pay my water bills, and D. if I can sustain the education of my children. I got three kids. That’s it. Because at the time when I was young, they say “Have kids, and we’re going to help you.” And of course, instead of helping us they tax us more when we have more kids. I’ll tell you some legislation that will make you go nuts. You won’t believe it. For example, you and I are in the same job. We’re selling Greek gyros. Imagine we’re both working there. And for some reason, you never went to college, but I did. The state with the new legislation which is about to pass will tax me more because I have a degree, although we’re doing the same thing. Now, go figure the logic in that! And of course, I have three kids. The third kid, now, is a liability. So what’s this mean? I have to pay more taxes, because I have three kids. So, in order to have three kids I have to have money to support it, so I pay more taxes. Can you get it? Not only that, but if their programs don’t come around, they’re going to be adding new measures by the month. Greece is a place where every six months to a whole year, maximum of a whole year, they have a new system of taxation, entirely new. Now my question is can you imagine a state where the taxation system, the whole thing, the whole infrastructure, everything changes completely every six months?
BD: No I can't.
Every six months, I don’t know how I’ll be taxed next year. They might change everything. From last year, I have to pay 3,000 Euro out of nothing. Last year, I got money back because I pay my taxes when I play. I have a receipt, and they take the tax. Now I have to pay out of nothing, out of thin air, 650 Euro just because I have the right to cut receipts, and 26% tax from the 1st Euro, so for the first 5,000 Euros, I pay around 2000 Euros as tax, about $2,650 tax. That is a good 40% tax in reality!!! Not to mention that whoever hires me pays a nice 13% V.A.T., and also has to pay my insurance, which means I cost twice as much as I get paid. And of course they don’t give a d--- about me having three kids. Actually they tax me more! You understand what I’m saying here? They don’t give a s---. And next year, the whole system might change, and I might have to give even more. Greece is the state of constantly being in flux, never having a stable condition. There’s no stable condition in Greece. There’s nothing that stays the same, especially with taxation systems, especially with legislation about all of that for than 3 months, 4 months, 5 months, 6 months, a year max. Everything is changed next year. Everything. And I’m saying everything. Now try living in a place like that.
BD: Wow. I hear Americans complain about presidential elections every four years.
Americans should have this life-size sculpture of Uncle Sam outside their door and worship it all day. (laughter) That’s what’s keeping you alive. But of course, we don’t have a military machine like you guys, so there’s nothing keeping us alive. (more laughter)
BD: But you don't have enemies like we do.
Oh yes we do. We have enemies. In difference with you, you don’t have enemies that can actually swallow you whole. You have enemies that you’re going to go to war with and probably annihilate yourselves and be done with it. But basically, if they wage war against you, you’ll annihilate them, and they’ll annihilate you, and I don’t know what else. But they won’t eat you alive. We have Turkey, which can amass an army with as many people as there are in Greece. Their army can be as big as the whole Greek [population]. They have two plants to construct F-16s, the planes. We have to buy each one for hundreds of millions of dollars from you guys, and they construct them from pieces, from parts. We could be shooting down twenty planes each [day], and the next day, they have twenty more. But we have to pay [for] each and every plane [with] cash if we go to war. None of our enemies are benevolent, and none of our enemies… wait, I’m a musician, so I don’t have any enemies any way. I mean nationally. I’ve played with musicians from everywhere, from all of these countries, and I love those people. For me, it’s peace everywhere. I’m not a right-wing nut job or something. But I know what’s happening. In a military sense, we’re f-----. In a military sense –not my sense, because I’m not like this- there are none of our neighbors except Italy who are benevolent. We’ve been to war with everybody. We’ve been to war with the Albanians, with the Serbs in 1913–they say that they are our brothers because we are both Christian Orthodox, because of the religion (religion for me personally is the greatest BS on earth btw)... Anyway, we’ve been at war with everybody, with the Turks, with the Bulgarians, with the Albanians, -with the Libyans I don’t remember- but we’ve had the Arab pirates way back. (laughter) Pretty much everybody. We were at war with the Italians in 1940. The first battle was with the Italians in 1940, not with the Nazis. They actually came here to save the (battle) of the Italians, when the latter lost.
BD: You mentioned the Germans. I've seen news stories where Greek protestors have signs up calling the Germans Nazis.
You know when I hear of that, I do one thing. There’s a universal language for it. It’s this (makes gesture). I find this completely stupid. It’s a mixed up situation where the New Greek guy, which is a completely abhorrent creature (laughter). I don’t know how the h--- you’re going to write all of this (laughter). You have to write it in a way that will not get me shot in the street, though. (laughter) You have to make it as soft as possible and avoid the political coloring I’m giving you. I’m giving it to you, so you know. You make sure I don’t die tomorrow. Alright? (laughter) There’s no freedom in Greece anymore, so imagine that you’re writing about someone from Saudi Arabia. And if somebody reads something which should not be read, I’m going to have the Golden Dawn A-holes outside my door tomorrow. (laughter) Or the communist party A-holes.
BD: I hope you’re kidding.
No I’m not. I’m not joking at all. Really. So, be extra careful how you formulate things. Keep the political stuff I’m telling you out of the picture. Keep them for yourself and people you know, and keep me out of it. Or write the whole thing anonymously. That’s perfectly fine with me. Don’t write that I’m the guy.
BD: Okay.
About the Germans and all that s---, I’m pretty sure that the average German guy, not the Germans that I’ve played with who are the greatest people…the greatest person that I’ve ever met is a German. I'll keep his name a secret because they can easily associate me with him in Greece. He’s the gentlest human being I’ve ever met in my life, bar none. So he’s a German. Now, I’m pretty sure that the average German is not like this guy, but I’m pretty sure that the average German has also been brainwashed by their media to believe that we’re nothing but lazy slobs that do nothing all day. That actually is true for a certain percentage of the population who were put in the public sector jobs with political means, people that were completely worthless to do anything on their own. And the mentality was let’s put them in the public sector, because the poor guy’s incapable. Now these guys live off me. Those are the guys that the government wants to fire, but it can’t because the government themselves hired them in the first place. It’s a lose/lose situation. It’s extremely funny if you look at it, because the Troika –you know Troika?-
BD: Yeah, the three financial groups...
…they come here every once in a while, so that they see what is going on with the Greek economy, so they can give us our next installment which, again, goes to the bankers. We don’t see any of it anyway….
BD: Right. Since Greece had too much debt, they give you more debt.
The debt was nowhere like it is now. But we have to give the power to that piece of s---! GAP, George Andreas Popandreou. That m----- f-----! He and his friends just chopped us into a hundred billion Euros of debt in a year. And you know what else? His brother, GAP’s brother, the prime minister’s brother is a huge investor in CDs. He made huge amounts of money out of the policies of his f---ing brother. If you do that in Wall Street, you go to jail because of insider information.
BD: Sadly, that's not even always true anymore.
So for the Germans, since you asked, we have our own mainstream media here. The mainstream media here is for people to puke on their TVs. It’s incredible. You wouldn’t believe it, how much brainwashing goes on to the Greek to say okay to all these austerity measures and make him believe that he is the reason that they are there. You wouldn’t believe how much guilt is being fed to the people on a daily basis because of those mother f---ers (unintelligible). They need scapegoats to channel the justifiable wrath of the people, to get it crushed every day. Who are the scapegoats? The scapegoats are very specific: the Germans that did all that, and of course there is a very true thing about the German reparations from the war. They never gave war reparations to Greece. They never did. If they gave them, that could be a very well needed 90 billion (Euros). It would be very useful. Thank you very much. But apart from that, everybody’s wrath is on Merkel. Merkel is the very bad woman here who wants to kill Greece. She does her job. She’s good for her own people, maybe not even good for her own people anymore. I don’t know. But she has her own country, and if she kills our country for her own, then she could turn out to be good for her people. She’s not good for us, but she shouldn't be the object of our wrath. We ourselves should be the object of our wrath, with the foul politicians we elect year after year, and the client relationship we have with them, and for the deep corrupt state we let them built, because it was convenient for us. Another scapegoat: the thing with the illegal immigrants in Greece, which is a huge problem. And it’s a huge problem because of three things. One thing is that Greece is at a border point of Europe. It’s a border. Right next to us are the African (peninsula?) below us and Turkey to the east. GAP, George Andreas Popandreou, the a-hole, signed the Dublin II Treaty, which you must search and see what we signed. We signed that if they catch an illegal immigrant in Belgium and they ask him, “Where did you come from?” He says, “I came from Greece.” He’s instantly transported to Greece. Can you imagine what this is going to bring to Greece? Every illegal immigrant who says they came in the EEC from Greece will come back to Greece! In a country that can barely hold ten million people. Imagine us with, currently speaking, two and a half million illegal immigrants, which is twenty-five percent. Now let’s make this analogy with the United States. How much is your population?
BD: Over 300 million now.
Okay, suppose that it’s 300 million exactly. If you had the same amount of illegal immigrants as Greece, you would have one quarter of that illegal immigrants. Do the division. You’d have 75 million immigrants! Nobody wants to stay at a place that has no future. Greece has no future. It’s a dead place, now as it is. It’s getting worse by the minute. Now who in his right mind wants to stay inside a place that is basically very bad? Nobody, illegal immigrants included, but they can’t go anywhere. They cannot leave Greece. They’re stuck here, and the Greeks are stuck with them. So the Greeks hate everybody who’s not their own skin, which creates KKK mentality in Greece, which I am extremely frustrated with that. I’m a musician. I love people of other cultures. My whole life has been playing with Cubans, with people from other cultures and loving every moment of it and thanking God for this incredible gift of sharing with other people of other cultures. And I fought very hard to get to the level where they will accept me and make music with me. But today this whole thing is reversed. They have search parties out from Golden Dawn. You know Golden Dawn and all that?
BD: No I don’t.
Golden Dawn is the party of the Nazis, of the fascists here, the far right-wing. And they created a whole army. We call this “tagmatasfalites”. It’s not an army in the traditional sense of an army. They recruit people that work like the same way that hooligans work in England with the football club where they go and raid places. It’s that kind of thing but at a much deeper level in society. What is being done here in Greece is that Greece is getting ready for a civil war all over again [between] left and right. That’s what they are about to do. And the police has been infiltrated with the Golden Dawn, and it has been to such an extent that… they do raids against illegal immigrants all the time. It’s called “Xenios Zeus” (hospitable Zeus), which is very ironic actually. “Xenios” was the name that the ancient Greeks gave to Zeus for hospitality. So it’s a hospitable Zeus. And this is the name that they use to raid illegal immigrants, which is an oxymoron. (laughter) They raided illegal immigrants, and among them –for some unknown reason he was just passing by- was a guy from South Korea. And they took him with the rest of them, the Pakistanis. They beat him up –because that’s what happens in the police force. Okay? Let’s not hide behind our finger here. A lot of beatings…Greeks too. There’s no difference.- And it’s super funny, because the guy just tells them, “I’m a tourist! I’m a tourist! Leave me alone. I want to go.” (laughter) Then they understood, “Oh s---! He’s not one of them. He’s a tourist.” So they let him leave. And then the Korean government protested against Greece. (laughter) This is pretty real. This s--- is really happening here. You have to know that. None of that is legendary. This is really happening. One of our neighbors has a person that occasionally drops by there to sleep for a night or two who signed up in Golden Dawn yesterday. It’s incredible.
BD: That's frightening.
It’s a new era for Greece, which I truly don’t want to live through it.
BD: And you can't leave?
I can leave, but the illegal immigrants cannot leave.
BD: Where would you go?
I was thinking of three or four places. One of them was central Europe to be near the guys I know and have gigs and all that. The other was actually the United States. I thought about coming with my family to the United States. I’m also a [redacted], so I could work at a high school at first before I enter the scene. That was an initial thought. And of course, I could go to Australia where I have people of my family living there. The problem is that I’m not a citizen of the United States, and I’m not a citizen of Australia either. So that would create problems for me, and central Europe would be easier. But I do not really know what the long term thing would be for me. I’m just thinking of going to Europe for a year or two and see how things are, and look around the world to see where I can take my family, and go then and make a fresh start, because I won’t subject them to what is going to happen. I don’t want my kids to suffer…
BD: I read recently that the U.S.'s debt to GDP ratio is as high as it is in Greece, and we're not the only western country with debt problems. How would you advise other musicians to prepare for something like this happening in their country?
Good question. Really good question. Unfortunately, and gravely enough, I don’t think that there is any way for anybody to be prepared for something like this. The only thing they can do is to learn from the example from Greece, read about our history and understand why this happened and how it has happened. Basically, they need to know more about what is politics to be able to understand what is going on. They truly need that. They need to know about their politics. They need to be very aware of what’s happening politically around the world in major places, the major decision makers, and to leave the details out of the picture and see the bigger picture. They have to be very keen and savvy in order to understand how things go. Now I know it because I’ve been burned, and my country has been burned too. It can happen anywhere. It will most likely happen in the so-called PIGS countries. You know, Portugal, Italy, Spain, Greece and all that. But it could very well happen in America but for the military. The military won’t allow this to happen. So you should be prepared for something completely different than us. You should be prepared for the very bad thing that if your economy is about to collapse, since the American debt is to a great extent bought by the Chinese, so if they decide to burn your economy, they may very well do so – although that would affect them as well, but that is another story. And then there is the new Russia. Since they both are nuclear powers, they probably would wage war against a nuclear power if need be, and that would achieve the annihilation of the world. This is not conspiracy theory stuff. This can actually happen. The stuff that’s happened in Greece was a conspiracy theory, and we see it every day. We see every conspiracy scenario in front of our eyes. So be prepared for everything. How can they prepare themselves? I don’t know. Move to Australia.
(laughter)
It’s a very frightening thing to wake up to be [redacted] years of age and having to start over again in places you don’t know, in conditions you don’t know, with kids in a country that most likely you won’t speak the language there. And take your children too, which have been used to standard of living in Greece and start over from nothing, from scratch. It’s not an easy thing. I just don’t want to do it more than once.
BD: Are there any projects you would like to promote?
Okay, let me think about that. Basically, I have three sides to me. One is the composer side. The other is with the trio. And the other is from current projects. I also have collaboration with Cubans as long as they stay in Greece and as long as the Golden Dawn doesn’t raid their houses. They are darker skinned than us, so they might take them for Pakistani and beat the h--- out of them. (laughter) I’m saying this laughing, but it could actually happen right now. It’s crazy. You wouldn’t believe the stuff that’s happening. There are places inside Athens where the immigrants are more than the Greeks and they’re slaughtering Greeks. They are slaughtering Greeks, and the Golden Dawn goes there and slaughters them. Really. I know this personally. I have played many festivals with many people. Right now with the political situation in Greece, nobody comes to Greece. So I don’t play with anybody, unless I leave Greece and go somewhere. Then I can play with them. (laughter) It’s like a vicious circle, like a snake eating its own tail.